Musicians - Help! re: Recording Equipment

[matthias]

I've been researching various equipment to purchase for digital recording of music for years. It's time for me to get off the fence and buy. But before I do, I wanted to query what you other guitarists, singers, songwriters, bands use.

I'll lay out what I have, what we play, what I hope to accomplish and what I'm thinking about purchasing and why.

I play solo and as a duo as trio. The instruments include: a six string Alvarez Yairi no pick-ups, 12 string Takamine with pick-ups built-in, Tacoma Thunderchief acoustic bass with pick-ups, a California Blonde amp, an AKG dynamic mic, a violin, an electric guitar and amp, RP5 effects board, harmonicas, and a variety of percussive instruments - shaker, egg, fish.

We play all sort of stuff (Beatles to Replacements) but all as acoustic arrangements. I'd like to add the missing pieces as well just don't know the players (percussionist, keyboard player) or have the time to practice with them (kids, wife, work).

What the band we have does is play a folk-style coffeehouse throughout the winter (once a month). I live 2 hours from my bandmate so practice is minimal but when we do play together and have practice, we usually craft interesting arrangements and bang out the songs live and unfortunately forget about them. The only capture I do is a Sony camcorder with a standard built-in mic which I port to PC and do light clean-up (noise reduction) with Cool Edit 2000 s/w. If the PA (or "engineer") is particularly bad, I'll adjust the EQ but typically "there ain't much you can do to 1 track." This has worked for my means but as we craft more complex arrangements this little microphone has major limitations and can't capture the low end (you don't hear the bass or backing vocals.)

Our goal is to record more properly because when we get a great version arranged and practice it up, I'm proud of it and I don't want to lose that work. Plus, I'd like to flesh the tunes out with some percussion and maybe keyboards similar to Ghost of Tom Joad type treatment.

So I'm thinking about purchasing the following:
1 condenser mic ($220)
M-Audio interface to the computer ($200)
Cubase SX 3.0 ($600 ~ ouch!)

What do you guys use? What make and model have you used? Pros / Cons? What type of output have you created?

My ultimate goal is record a 12 song CD that I'd be happy with sound-wise to distribute to friends.

This will be a big hit to the wallet so you can see why I want to bounce the ideas around and pick up tips. Usually, you go into Guitar Center and each guy has a limited expertise, some swear by self-contained portable recorders, some praise computer technology. Rarely, do you find both. But I'm more technical by nature as I work in IT.

Thanks for listening.

[traveen]

Hi Matthias,

Well this may not be what you are looking for but I'll tell you my experiences..

After trying many different recording formats, different software and stand alone digitals and tape machines (cassette only) (Cubase, Soundforge, Cakewalk, M-audio Fostex, tascam etc).. I dumped them all and went to a freeware program called Audacity that I run on my PC.

http://audacity.sourceforge.net/

The reasons were many so I'll list a few of why it's worked for me, your mileage may vary.

1. I have no use for and do not use midi, loops, copy/paste etc..  This software is meant as a recording and editing tool and even though it supports many things I do not use.. it works very well without all the extra crap (crap is my personal experience not meant to infer it's bad or whatever to anyone else, if it works for you, it's good).. That was important for me.. just a simple recording tool without a bunch or stuff using my limited CPU.
2. It's simple and it works, I think of it as a digital tape deck.
3. It's free, and by golly, it is quite user friendly. If you can run a tape deck, you can run this software.
4. It's not a CPU hog.
5. Did I mention it's free? Truly free, no limits, no emails, no ads, no nags.. open source code even.
6. It works like a tape deck and the tracks are limited to your PC or Mac's ability. I can run 12-14 tracks with an HP Kayak w/500 ram and intel III processor. If I need more I can make a two track mix down and add more and then put it all together at the end.
7. The noise removal tool actually saved some old stuff I had that I wanted to remove the hiss from..
8. Yep, it's free..

I use a mixer and plug into a $25 soundblaster (SBlive) soundcard I got on ebay. What little I know about firewire and such seems cool, but I'm sick of spending money on things other than instruments and mics. I had a mixer

Ya'll may laugh, but I stand by the quality of my recordings coming from a basement by a hobby musician.  Also, keep in mind I am talking recording quality only here, I intentionally do things low tech because I personally do not like processed music.  Plus, I do this for fun and nothing else. Turn on the recorder and record.. that's my motto. My preferred way to record is live and most of this was live and then I added other things to the mix.  Some were obviously studio creations, but most if not all started as live rhythm tracks.
I am not plugging my music or my old band's or anything, but if you want to hear the results I get using this very low cost setup go here:

http://www.soundclick.com/bands/pagemusic.cfm?bandID=123430
or some old solo stuff by me where I do everything.
http://www.soundclick.com/bands/pagemusic.cfm?bandID=168248

There's a ton of different setups, instruments and mics used on these songs but all are either a Fostex FD-8 and/or Audacity . I sometimes wanted 4 live track recording so I still use both at times. I do not recommend a Fostex FD-8 unless it has an internal HD, the external drives always have problems.  If you want a particular setup for a song, email me.  I have notes around on all that. Most people find it boring so i don't put it up there with the songs anymore.

For mics, man I learned the hard way there. I started with cheapies and eventually went to some better ones.. then after discovering I had ears for this stuff, I decided that almost any mic has an application.. they all do different things. I purchased an AT3035 for $199 w/shock mount about 4 years ago (large diaphragm condenser mic), the prices for these have remained about the same and I'm sure there are those that are better and worse, I like mine and feel happy for the money. 

Then later, I had a desire for stereo acoustic guitar recording so I got a pair of those Behringers C2's.. I know Behringer,, the fodder of pawnshops and junk stores everywhere... but I got to say,, $50 for a matched set of two small condenser mics with a stereo bar, clips, and windscreens was more than my inquisitive mind could resist. I bought them and am very happy with them. So far I've used them as drum overheads, snare drum and acoustic guitar. Always keep price in perspective when buying a mic.

I also have a Rode NT1 and do no tlike it much.. I think it has issues but haven't bothered to check into it. It's very quiet but it cannot handle hardly any SPL. It works for my vocals because I "sing" very quietly but almost everyone else peaks it out.

If I had to do the mic thing over again, I'd save and get some decent ones even if it was used from ebay.. 

My short list of mics and uses..

Sennheiser E835s (2) Live and recorded vocals
Rode NT1.. nice mic, mines jacked up i think,, I'd use it for recorded vocals.. didn't like it on acoustic guitar.
AT3035: Everything from bass drum to vocals.. my one go-to mic when I am unsure mostly acoustic guitar.
Peavey  PVM 45I (2)  Stereo Leslie cabinet micing for my Hammond organ. also,  bass drum or tom mics.
EV- PL95 (2) Live and recorded vocals, snare drum.
Behringer C2 (2)  Acoustic guitar recording, drum overheads.. snare drum.. <---just got these.


Ok, this is long enough,, if you or anyone wants more I can do it via email so as not to bore the rest..

peace
Tim

[matthias]

Tim,

This stuff isn't boring. It's fascinating.  I'm interested to know which songs have what on them for each band.

Pick two songs: one from each group that are audacity and please include information on how you recorded the tracks (live, who played together which mics, etc.)

Thanks for your help.  I also believe in live recording and don't like processed music.  I'd rather spend the money on music equipment instead of computers.

Although once I get better at recording at if I can find a really good but not to complicated software program, I'd like to fill out some of the tracks.  Kind of like Dan L. does where he has a great live drum track and then messes around with it.

Unfortunately I do not have a mixer.  What do you have?  How much was it?  Did you get it on eBay?  I'm skiddish about eBay.  I've had good experiences with it but I worried about buying mics and recording equipment.  Got my California Blonde there though.

MT

[traveen]

Matthias,
Ok you asked for it...lol

It's hard, I wish to record live but since I am usually alone it can be complicated to say the least. I detest metronomes and perfect timing so I do my best to change the speed if I use a drum machine as a click track at the beginning. As often as I can I get a real drummer there and play live with them,, then I build from there.  I do have songs I added drums myself at the end, but I find that a hard process.  If you're into hearing that, listen to Lamentation at the Lemontin site.. I did everything wrong on that one.  Yet if I don't tell people what I did, they do not seem to notice...

My mixer is a Soundcraft Spirit Folio 4.  20 track 12xlrs and 8 rca inputs. ..  I got it on ebay after searching for over a month..I paid about $200 for it including shipping. If I had to do it over again I might think of the USB stuff, or firewire or whatever it's called.. I know little of those things so I cannot comment.  I understand mixers so that's the route I chose.  This particular one has more bells and whistles than I need though.  But I always liked the sound of Soundcraft's mic preamps...  what little I know of mixers is that Soundcraft seems to me, to sound good.  at the same time it's all relative, I could say I had a Behringer or a Mackie or whatever.. does anyone really hear that though?  More than anything I probably got that in my head by someone else saying they were good.

At some point it becomes a head game about listing gear and getting off on it. Before I had that mixer I used my Fostex...  as I get better at recording this stuff I realize that I never use EQ on a mixer,, I could probably do quite well with just a straight in type of thing with no eq or anything other than l-r and sound level faders.  Possible even using just an ART mic pre or whatever.  The reason I went to a mixer is becuase I like to have my mic cables all going to certain places. I have a small place to record so I have them running across the ceiling. Then I just plug a mic at the end of the cord near whatever instrument I'm using and I have my mixer already set up.. eq, busses etc... never use them.

anyway.. two specific songs and setups..

On the Eclectic Buffalo site, there is a song called Sweet Marie.  The breakdown is like this..

Rhythm tracks all recorded live: bass, drums onto the Fostex FD-8, drums; stereo and bass; mono to both tracks.  Tremolo guitar (the one that starts the song) and the lead guitar:  one track each using Audacity. I usually put the bass and drums onto the Fostex because they seemed to be harder to control in volume and dynamics and there's a slight compression on those hard disk things (in my ears anyway).  Both Audacity and my Fostex can only keep two tracks separate when recording, so when I want 4 tracks I use them both.  This is true of most "multitrack" home recording things. You can record more but it all breaks down to l-r.  Until you get to hard disk recording but then you need a mixer channel for each track.  Perhaps the newer firewire stuff can record more, that freeware Audacity cannot though.

I added one tremolo guitar and had my wife sing lead vocals a day or two later using Audacity.

Largest hassle, our drummer was technically very good, but his kit sounded like crap no matter what I did. Every drum on that Eclectic Buffalo site was done on a $250 Pulse kit from Musicians Friend. It sounded like wet cardboard to me. If the drums even sound like drums that is my greatest pride in all those recordings.

Equipment:

Starting tremolo guitar (right side): Hamer Eclipse guitar with mini humbuckers. It's sound is very similar to a Gibson Firebird. Playing into a Peavey Classic tube amp using the AT3035 Large condenser mic I have. Tremolo was from the amp.

Lead guitar (left):

That's my buddy playing lead and he had some old Epiphone guitar. The pickups were noisy but he has such a sweet touch it makes up for it.. I forgot the model. His amp was one of those newer Highes and Kettner (spelling?) 30 watt solid state things that light up blue all over. I used an EV-pl95 mic on his amp.

Bass:

American Fender jazz/precision routed straight into the Fostex FD-8. I usually put his amp near the bass drum so there is probably some ambient bass coming through that mic.

Drums:

Cheap Pulse kit.. using inexpensive Nady drum mics that were his own. The mics were ok for the $$ but some of the cords that came with the set were noisy so I used a few others to stop that noise.  He had nice cymbals though and I used two Radio shack small tube condenser mics as overheads.  Rumour has it that these mics were actually made by Shure. They do sound nice for the price... $35 for the pair used.  I also have a plugin,,the only one I use called Ambience Reverb I got for free off the net somewhere. I used this because his drums sounded so crappy and I liked this Ambience Reverb plugin.. I just used a preset in there called "Mario:drum Room". It added a snap that his wet cardboard drums didn't have.  The free version comes with a nag screen and since I did use it I actually sent the guy some money and he sent me a nag free version. 

All the above was recorded live at the same time, then we added this:
Vocals:

AT3035 mic. I wanted to have her add some other things towards the end of the song but we never got around to it. We were going to edit it for length too, but I kept it as we recorded it.

Additional Tremolo guitar (left):

Hamer Eclipse in one of my own alternate made up tunings uisng my Peavey amp again and played through a Vox 2x12 speaker cabinet with the AT3035 mic. The tremolo was not recorded, I added it later using some freeware tremolo thing, probably Bj's.  I didn't want the same tremolo on both guitars but yet they had to be close or it would mush out.


Lemontin song..

Nobody Knows.. Used Audacity for everything except "mastering".
I cut out the original 4 bar intro which was just us getting into a feel for the song. Later I took out all the instruments of the intro exept an organ swell and then just cut into the song.  I used Audacity for all that as it makes edits quite easily. I always make a wav file for each track after recording so if I do something bad I can get the original track back.  I always do my editing destructively or else I never finish a song,,, there's just so many options so I have to make a decision and Go... if I really mess something up I can go back to the beginning.. it's all or nothing for me.  I do little editing or "turd polishing" on my songs.. that's just me.. not saying it's bad or anything but it just doesn't work for me. But when I do, it's destructive editing.  From what I know of Audacity, you can make your edits non destructively.. all that means is destructive is that if I add a reverb or change the eq.. I change it and it's a done deal. Non destructive means I can edit and still go back to the original state of the track.  How far you can edit non destructively I do not know.


Bass drum and rhythm guitar recorded live onto one mic.. again.. my AT3035 mic.

Drums:
My buddy played drums using one EV-pl95 on the snare drum (top) and two Radio Shack condensers as overheads.  That's my $100 pawn shop drum kit.. it says Ludwig  but I doubt it. it does have decent sound for the $$.

Rhythm Guitar:

Washburn J9 Hollowbody through an Epiphone Galxie 25 amp..same mic as the bass drum live.  I wish I didn't do this though,, I played some neat chords underneath that but it's hard to hear them..oh well.

Organ:

1950's Hammond B3 through an equally old Leslie. I modified the Leslie to run much slower than normal.. on the intro, if you're familar with Leslies, you can hear it's much slower than normal.
I used two Peavey PVM 45I's front and right.. Instead of left/right I chose front/right to give a longer dead space oscilliation.. it makes it build more and is especially evident when I slow it down as I did.

Bass:

Well, I'm not a real bassist so all I have is a cheap First Act bass I bought at a scratch and dent store for $75.  It's really quite cheap but I put flat wounds on it and foam under the bridge to help deaden the bright sound. I recorded this straight into my mixer.

Fill Guitar:

Washburn again, I have a varitone I put on there from that guy on ebay (Dave Lenard or somehting liek that,, about $40 and well worth it) and put it to a more jazzy sounding setting.  Peavey amp, home made 1x12 cabinet that i sealed to give it a tight fast response. I play with my fingers a lot as opposed to a pick and the sealed cabinet gives me a faster response when using single string playing as opposed to chords,, (in my head anyway), same mic  At3035.

Percussion:

Mic At3035.

Vocals:

Either my At3035 or my Sennheiser E-835.. or more likely I used one each for each person.  Drummer also added the low backing vocals.  I would normally know which mics but I used the scratch vocal take.  Something I learned from reading a Daniel Lanois interview that Santiago posted here.. always record the scratch takes and the demos or whatever.. Actually, the drums and rhythm guitar were the demo takes too. I wanted to record it so I wouldn't forget it. I just wrote the song and we slapped it down real fast..  We tried later for a "real" take but nothing matched what we did on the first one. It was supposed to be a blues song.. but to me it sounds a little jazzy..  that's what I like about playing with others,, they change things. The guy who played drums is actually a keyboard player.. it just came out weird but I liked it and built around that.


if I missed out on any info you wanted..let me know and I'll fill it in as best I can...
I just like to talk music and recording technique.. I'd love to hear and read what others have done..??

[traveen]

These are the mics I got that I think are such a great deal..

http://www.lentine.com/88066.htm?parentid=615

[matthias]

OK so now I'm torn.  I've checked out the specs for Pro Tools and I'm great on everything but chipset (see attached.)  I'm not sure if the 925X Express is the same as a 925XE (supported) or the 925X which Intel says is not supported.  I cannot find a way to ask either Digidesign or Intel on their websites.  I'm going to call Dell India but I'm leery about purchasing now on the recommendation of someone besides the original OEM.

So I've been looking at other ideas such as:

M-Audio FireWire 410 Computer Recording Interface Product #701385 - on Musician's Friend it got some poor reviews from DJs but a good one from someone who's doing similar sorts of recording (guitar, bass, vocals) like me.  The price is right at $299 with free headphones and I can spend the cash on software (it doesn't sound like it includes any) and microphones.

the other option is PreSonus FIREPOD 10-Channel FireWire Interface with Cubase LE - this would include the software and is only $499.  Much better reviews, can also record drums (unlike first option) 

Anyone use Cubase LE?  Any other comments?  This money is burning a hole in my pocket!